the chunky/gorgeous woman on the subway
She was gorgeous. A regal profile, dusky skin, round thighs that narrowed into long, graceful legs in black leggings. She was curvy, but she wasn’t the classic hourglass shape. She was something unique. Something captivating. I liked her tight, brave outfit. I liked her confident face and her perfect posture. There was something queenly and dramatic and comfortable about her.
We were on the subway. I elbowed Bear. “That woman is really beautiful.” I had to tell someone!
He glanced around. “Which one?”
“In the leather jacket!” Obviously.
Then I saw that her friend, slender and with hair molded into big, stiff curls, was wearing the same jacket. She was also beautiful. I hadn’t noticed her before.
“Her?” Bear nodded towards the friend.
“Leggings,” I said.
He looked thoughtful for a second. Then he whispered, “Kinda chunky.”
“Excuse me?” I knew I hadn’t misheard, but I hoped for a frantic moment that we could pretend I had misheard and he could say, “Kinda spunky…. and awesome.”
“Chunky.”
The world ended.
OK, the world didn’t officially end. I’m typing this. But I was stunned. “Chunky?” I hissed. “What does that mean?”
But the subway doors were opening, and we were pushing our way out onto the platform. Life happened for a few distracted hours, and then I was back on track, in our bedroom:
“Why did you say that, about that woman on the subway?”
“Say what?”
“The thing about her being chunky.”
He looked cornered. “I don’t know. I mean, I guess it was just the way her body was proportioned. How she carried her weight? Her thighs were really big.”
“Oh. So her weight was in the wrong place. Maybe if she’d ‘carried her weight’ in her boobs, that would’ve been better? Would you have liked that better?” (Yes. Full fighting mode, already. It was a little like being inhabited by a really insecure, possibly teenage demon.)
“Come on, Kate. It doesn’t matter. You thought she was pretty. I’m not even saying she’s not pretty. She had a cool face. Why do you care?”
I hate it when people say that. About the face. Well, at least her face was OK. “You ARE saying she’s not pretty! And you’re saying it’s because of her weight. You consider her too heavy, and you think that’s unattractive.”
He got annoyed. “Look, I know you like to point out unconventional looking people. It’s this statement for you. But that doesn’t mean I have to think unconventional looking people are more attractive.”
“You thought she was unconventional? Because she wasn’t a size two? Are you even serious?”
This is war. I grabbed the laptop off the bed, almost crushing it with my superhuman angry hulk strength, and flung it open. I was on Facebook in one second flat, my fingers flying over the keys.
(Actually, I’m pretty sure this is my demon. source)
“Here—” I shoved it at him. “Is she overweight? Would you say she’s fat?” I clicked to another profile. “What about her?” Very dangerous territory.
“I don’t want to do this.” He looked a little abused, and like he wanted to escape.
“Tell me! I want to know! I want to know what you think!”
“I don’t know…She’s not thin…”
“Then I’m not thin! Look at her arms!” I seized one of my arms and waved the fat at him. If I could throw my arm fat in his face, I probably would have. “Her arms are SMALLER THAN MINE. I am not thin, by your standards.”
“You look perfect. And you are thin.”
I laughed gleefully. “Oh! Good! I’m perfect because I’m still somehow thin enough! Thank God. Let’s pray I don’t gain five more pounds and get disproportionate. Let’s take a moment to pray for my thighs.”
I heard that I was out of control. That I was overreacting. I had become that most humiliating and reviled of things—the crazy woman. The woman no one ever respects. The woman we all try so hard not to be, because no one likes her. She is a stereotype of herself. She is always inappropriate. She is always a failure.
(But at least she’s thin! Source)
I didn’t know what was happening. I didn’t know why I was so hurt and furious over Bear’s comment about the woman. She was just someone on the subway. Not me. He always says I’m beautiful. He says it every single day. I’m beautiful, I’m sexy, I’m cute, I’m perfect.
“What do you want me to say?” Bear said. He probably looked upset, but I wasn’t looking at him. I was jigging the mouse on my Facebook profile, back and forth, back and forth. I couldn’t look up.
“Everyone is beautiful, OK?” he said, sarcastic. “There. Everyone is beautiful.”
I started crying.
How horribly embarrassing that it isn’t a joke for me. That I am serious about everyone being beautiful. How absurd and oblivious. And I am bad at crying. It always feels like surrender, and I’m never done with the fight.
“Someone out there in this city can say the same thing about me,” I said, in my embarrassing choked crying voice. “Some guy looked at ME on the subway today and thought that I was chunky. He dismissed me with one single word.”
“Even if that’s true, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks,” Bear said. “We don’t all have to agree. And you’re gorgeous.”
“SHE was gorgeous! That woman on the subway was gorgeous. Why is everyone so mean? Why is everyone so quick to judge? Why is it SO HARD to be OK with gaining weight?” I might’ve been yelling.
“I thought you liked your body with the weight gain!” He was completely confused. “You seemed happy about it. I thought you felt good about it.”
“I do! I do. It’s just hard. I am a lot heavier now. And the whole world is full of people who say ‘chunky.’ I am chunky. I am chunky and beautiful. And even if you don’t think I’m chunky—I want to be able to be chunky. I want to be able to gain more weight without having to feel ugly. And I don’t want it to be because I have a pretty face. I don’t have a conventional face. And now I don’t have a conventional body. Nothing about me is conventional anymore. It’s all different. It’s all difficult. And I want that to be beautiful.”
Is that impossible? Am I using the wrong words now?
Maybe Bear is right. Maybe beauty can be divided up. It already has been. Maybe it depends on parts and pieces. Maybe beauty is about what most people think, not what I think. But as I sat there on the bed, clutching the laptop and crying stupidly over something I barely understood, when there are so many better things to cry about in the world, all I could think was that I wanted so badly for the statement “Everyone is beautiful” to be serious. I wanted to wear whatever I wanted and look queenly, without worrying.
Bear would say, “So don’t worry! Just wear it, and who cares what anyone thinks?”
Maybe we don’t even know how to have this argument, because we think so differently about it. Of course I care. And he thinks, “Well, that’s the problem.” And I think, “The problem is the way everyone else is thinking about beauty.”
But I can’t stop them from thinking whatever they are thinking.
I can’t even stop my husband from thinking the word “chunky” about a gorgeous, bold woman on the subway. The truth is, in my worst, most shameful moments, when I am stuck, flicking the cursor endlessly back and forth, unable to look up and confess, I am afraid that he will think this word about me. And I am afraid of what will happen if he does. I am afraid, because of how fragile my own beauty feels sometimes. Of how fragile I am.
(maybe it’s a wormhole, and on the other side there’s an incredible galaxy full of all my favorite Star Trek characters. You never know. source)
* * *
Unroast: Today I love the way I look in a peach colored summer dress. Yesterday I wore it, and a woman walking by with her toddler said, “You’re the only one wearing the right outfit today.” Which made me feel like I’d definitely won some sort of prize for awesomeness.
Kate on March 20th 2012 in Uncategorized
Sooz responded on 22 Mar 2012 at 6:04 pm #
I have this conversation with myself all the time. I feel just like you do. my husband likes thin athleticly built women and I am definitely NOT that girl. i always feel super unattractive around him which sucks b/c he’s my husband. and this is a continuation of what I grew up with b/c i was chunky as a kid (especially when puberty hit around 11 years old) and my sister was wicked thin and my mom always told me how fat i was and that i shouldn’t eat. ugh. i never feel beautiful and people always tell me that my FACE is pretty enough so my body doesn’t matter. I HATE that. Oh man. I could go on and on about this subject. But i won’t. Just know KATE that there are other women who totally feel what you said in this post and are with you every step of the way. Love you!
Rapunzel responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 12:47 am #
I don’t really get my spouse either. I don’t understand THEM. I don’t understand how they can oogle after skinny beautiful women with toned muscles, tall height, flat stomach, and perfect skin, and then be married to someone like me and be happy. I just cannot comprehend how my husband can call me beautiful when I know he finds today’s version of beautiful women beautiful.
And after I’ve lost 30 pounds (yay me….much more to go though), he says “you look so much better.” Which, I know, is a compliment of course. And I would feel almost offended if he DIDN’T say something like that about it. But, then again….what about before? What if I gain it all back, which statistically could probably happen? It makes me know his potential disappointment. It’s like he can’t say anything with incriminating himself. I almost feel sorry for him. Almost!
Friday Favorites | To Be Frank responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 9:22 am #
[…] hasn’t had an argument like this with a friend, boyfriend, or family member? I may have related most to the part about being a crazy […]
melissa responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 12:48 pm #
I don’t know what to think. Well, I think girls who carry all of their weight in their ass are sexy as all hell!
But I can’t fault a person for what they personally find attractive. It only angers me when people aren’t honest about it. Say, I have a friend who was married to a very “heavy” girl. He often posted things on facebook to support the idea that heavy was still sexy and beautiful. But in real life, he purrs when a stick-thin actress arrives on screen and comments on how nice her body is.
It angers me when people only support fat girls for the political advantage of supporting fat girls.
I kinda wish there would be a balance and peace between these two extremes that are fighting each other for no reason, instead of it always swinging from one polarity to the next ya know?
I admit that I’m attracted to thin guys. I can’t change that any more than I can change my sexuality. But that doesn’t mean I plan to dump my boyfriend (who will never be thin). Perhaps this is the real basis of why it bothers you so much?
Julie responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 4:37 pm #
I love this. Thank you for writing it.
waffles responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 5:12 pm #
Wow! That was a completely unnecessary reaction of you. I understand that he struck a nerve, but don’t you know that everyone has the right to prefer whatever body types they want? By deciding that everyone has to like the same exact type YOU like, you are being just as bad as someone saying everyone has to be thin.
Frances responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 6:15 pm #
I saw a girl in London today in YOUR rabbit dress. At least that’s the first thing I thought when she walked past. She looked curvy and beautiful.
As terrible as the body-size-struggle can be, the worry that the whole world is judging you on the metro, sometimes the internet makes it better. Sometimes a stranger, like you, consistently writing about their own fat-thin tug of war can make a little positive difference on the other side of the Atlantic.
Ta love! Keep being that crazy woman x
Bill responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 7:46 pm #
Here’s the thing — none of us are consistent — not you, not me, not Bear, not the third person down from you on the subway, not the gorgeous/chunky woman you and Bear were talking about. Yet all of us have the capacity to become better than we are now and to recognize the beauty in us all. The grace in us all. It would be interesting to explore (from a disinterested perspective) the differences in what you and what Bear see as “beauty” — but in the meantime: whoa, my wonderful writer! You’re beautiful, you’re insightful, you’re loved. You could see someone who was REALLY close to the woman here and not be struck by her beauty; and Bear could. Seeing the woman you wrote about a few hours earlier, and you might have missed her beauty, whereas Bear might have been struck by it.
No worries. Thanks for being a great writer, and I’m sure for being a wonderful person, always trying to grow and learn and be more accepting. You rock.
Alicia Cumming responded on 23 Mar 2012 at 11:16 pm #
such an illuminating story on how not everyone is beautiful to us and we a) accept it like Bear, or b) we so want everyone to be considered beautiful-because it is sad that heavier people are considered unattractive when there are definite alluring qualities about them, just as there are with women of all sizes. What I took from your description of the “chunky woman on the subway”: you were attracted to her confidence, and this is what often makes people so alluring–the confidence in who they are, to put it in such a trite way.
Kristen responded on 24 Mar 2012 at 12:46 am #
I had a similar conversation recently with a co-worker. He told me that he would never date someone who looked like Adele. I couldn’t believe it. I know she’s not half-naked and carries a little extra weight and may not fit our culture’s conventional beauty ideal. What he said meant that she was below his minimum attractiveness level. I figured it was because he thinks she’s fat and he didn’t want to say that because I’m heavy as well. It made me feel bad about myself and scared as well. So, I totally know how you feel.
Cindy responded on 24 Mar 2012 at 7:14 am #
If he says everyone is beautiful (forced to or otherwise), how valuable will it be when he tells you that YOU are beautiful. Everyone is allowed to have their own image of beautiful or attractive, and it’s awesome that your man tells you that he thinks you are beautiful
B responded on 24 Mar 2012 at 12:07 pm #
I agree with Ash, comment 25. To you, this subject is very important, but maybe a significant other sees the question, “what do you think of that woman?” to be the worst kind of conversational landmine. And my personal opinion is that this question undeniably turned into a landline for Bear. He is your partner, but he is allowed to have his philosophy not exactly lined up with yours–which he pointed out. Why does he have to retract that he thinks the woman is chunky? And if you do become someone’s definition of chunky, that’s not the sole reason Bear married you. In fact, prove me wrong, but some women (including some of those who preach body acceptance) are offended by guys who base all on looks. And yet on the subway, you gave value to a person based on her looks. Maybe your husband thought you wanted validation that you were prettier–I know some women who ask for that reason. I applaud you for putting yourself and your actions out there, ugly and nice, but why couldn’t you give your husband the right to his word choice and the befit of the doubt? Are you never flippant, insensitive, and bluntly honest? If everyone is beautiful no matter how they present themselves, is everyone smart, kind, and nonjudgemental no matter how they act? I’m not on board with that, but I will say that everyone has the potential to ge beautiful, just as most have the potential to be smart.
Zellie responded on 24 Mar 2012 at 1:45 pm #
I love your homeshooling posts and I like to see what I’ll find here, but I don’t belong here. I know this is your body image blog and I don’t want to spoil it, but imagine following Miss Manners’s rule that it is impolite to talk about others’ appearances–no nice haircut, great dress, you’re beautiful. Just letting people be and relating to them. Just imagine it. People will think what they think, but they won’t be influencing others and hurting their feelings by saying it out loud. Then we have to talk about something else. Putting our attention on something else will improve our thinking.
I feel sorry for our men. What are they supposed to do? Not everyone is young, thin and beautiful. What do we expect them to say when we’re fat or wrinkled or saggy? Say it anyway? They can always see the beauty in us as people but is that what we’re asking of them?
Lovely Links: 3/23/12 responded on 24 Mar 2012 at 8:48 pm #
[…] “The whole world is full of people who say ‘chunky.’ I am chunky. I am chunky and beautiful. And even if you don’t think I’m chunky—I want to be able to be chunky. I want to be able to gain more weight without having to feel ugly.” […]
tirzahrene responded on 25 Mar 2012 at 6:39 pm #
I wonder if there’s a way – a code phrase, maybe – to communicate when you want him to look for the beauty that you see in someone vs. when you’re more interested in knowing what he sees.
I tend very much towards seeing the beauty in people, and I think I’d have to come up with some phrasing to share that, something that would say, “Look, I want you to see what I see, look for the beauty here.”
Kate responded on 25 Mar 2012 at 7:08 pm #
@tirzahrene and a few others
I guess when I pointed the woman out I really didn’t think anyone would think anything other than “wow! She’s awesome!” when they looked at her. I didn’t feel like I was being especially alternative or subversive or anything. I don’t think there really are hard and fast beauty rules– beauty can look a lot of different ways. That doesn’t mean I find everyone stunning, of course. But I definitely find a lot of different looks attractive. And in this case, I was really unprepared for anyone to disagree with me. I guess it just goes to show that everyone really likes different things. Shocking, right? 🙂 But I think we can also like different things without completely dismissing or speaking meanly of the things we’re not as into. Not to say that Bear was so incredibly mean. But just to make a point. OK, done 🙂
This Week In Fatness II – Axis of Fat responded on 26 Mar 2012 at 10:21 am #
[…] post about the “chunky” gorgeous woman on the subway stood out to me because I think we can all relate to this experience.It’s hard not to see […]
Marilyn responded on 26 Mar 2012 at 1:23 pm #
I remember when I was younger that I would feel ‘fat’. It made me less attractive. When I was over thirty and had my two children, men would compliment me. I would have those glances. I was no thinner than before, but I had an attitude that I thought that I looked good. It showed. I’m now 48 and bus drivers and others will say things like “I only talk to beautiful ladies.” I know that they talk to everyone, but it’s nice to be called beautiful by a stranger.
It’s nice when men turn to look me over. It’s nice to be appreciated this way although I’m still chunky. I’m about ten pounds heavier than the days when men would shot ‘ugly fat, chick’ at me. Now, I only hear the compliments.
Kate responded on 26 Mar 2012 at 1:28 pm #
@Marilyn
I want to get to that point– only hearing the compliments. That’s awesome.
Mandy responded on 26 Mar 2012 at 5:06 pm #
I’ve had variations of that conversation with men. But I think that they don’t really understand it in their bones the way women do, because in our culture, (as a rule of thumb, there are exceptions) men tend to be valued for what they can DO (make money, solve problems, athletics), whereas women tend to be valued first by how they LOOK. It’s a fundamental difference in philosophy, and I’m sometimes very thankful that they DON’T truly get it…because I think you have to actually go through that kind of insecurity to understand it. And I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
And, Kate…my immedate reaction to this post was to want to reach through the computer and hug you, sweetie.
sarah responded on 27 Mar 2012 at 5:33 pm #
“I want to be able to gain more weight without having to feel ugly.”
I feel you. I so feel you.
I wanted to chime in, because I have a different story from the ones I’ve read here. My husband actually prefers a curvy hourglass – always has. In fact, I was “too skinny” for him when we first met, and though I fell in love with him within days of meeting him, he was SO NOT INTERESTED in bony, flat-chested, athletic me. This post (and its comments) have me wondering if I am the last woman on earth to have married a man who likes a girl with some curves and body?
I gained 25 or 30 lbs after we finally got around to getting married. It was very traumatic, because it was a sudden change – and it was a real change. My *shape* changed, and suddenly, I didn’t know myself anymore. But I got over it.
A couple of things happened that facilitated this. One, I realized that when I talked bad about myself, I sounded like my mother – who, for whatever reason, seems determined to convince herself that she is unattractive. Two, I was reading an article about an up-and-coming new chef who had completed a gorgeous remodel of a midcentury home. The article touted the young woman’s style and creativity, featuring her home, her garden, her fashions, and of course, her FOOD. And I realized, I’ve never really seen a cook who is a size 0 (my husband and I are both talented cooks and throw some seriously sophisticated dinner parties). I thought to myself, I’d rather mellow into middle age as one of those generous, happy people, who welcomes friends and colleagues into her home with incredible food and drink … and maybe I’ll just be comfortably plump. Really, what’s wrong with that? It sounds nice, doesn’t it? I started thinking about all the articles I’d ever read about people who stayed VERY thin – and every one included a list of foods that were “don’ts.” And if I’m honest with myself, I’d really rather have dessert than be a size 2.
So. I tried on everything I owned, which was sad. I boxed up everything that didn’t fit, which was sad. I gave clothes away to tiny friends, which was a little sad. But more importantly, I bought new clothes, and started experimenting with how best to flatter my new body, which IS fun. (frustrating and a bit awkward at times, but I think of it as an ongoing project and keep at it.) I stuck to thrifts at first, but by this winter I was buying silk velvet palazzos and gorgeous wool trousers in my new size. It was important to me that the new body be treated with as much love and attention as I lavished on my yoga/dance body of old.
I suspect that Bear will NEVER EVER see you with the eyes you turn on yourself. If it’s any comfort. My husband LOVES the new cuves, which probably made my journey a lot easier than it could have been. Still, I think that in the end, you will only be as happy with your body as you choose to allow yourself to be. Good luck to you – my heart is with you.
Kate responded on 27 Mar 2012 at 5:40 pm #
@Sarah
I’m all about cooking great food, and then enjoying it 🙂
I love this comment.
And the truth is, Bear loves my new curves. Who wouldn’t? OK, maybe plenty of people wouldn’t, as we’re seeing here. But I think that even when people are encouraged by, you know, our entire society to automatically respond negatively to heaviness, I don’t think that necessarily means that they aren’t also attracted to it. People can be attracted to more than one body type at once. I’m glad your husband understands what he likes and that what he likes is something that you like being.
Diane responded on 27 Mar 2012 at 10:29 pm #
I’m sorry you were hurt by the man in your life. You have shared an experience that so many women have had and it’s an important conversation to have about behaviors that need to be addressed. There is a lot of unchecked privilege in the seemingly simple conversation you had where you felt a betrayal had occurred. It had. You weren’t acting “crazy” (ablest language fail), or being “irrational” in your response. I’d like to share a link to one of the most important pieces of writing I have ever read as it articulates so eloquently and concisely everything I feel about the underlying dynamics of such situations as you found yourself in. It’s a post from Melissa McEwan at her blog Shakesville. It’s rather a long post so I’ll just put the link… http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2012/03/terrible-bargain-we-have-regretfully.html It’s a brilliant piece of writing but it’s more than that… so much more.
Also for me, I’m uncomfortable with the whole commenting on another woman’s body (or anyone’s body), to begin with–bestowing approval or disapproval on another woman based on her looks. Another commenter in this post also had a similar situation and it began with her commenting on another woman’s body. So there is again some un-checked privilege there to unpack in why a person would feel the need or that they have the right to comment on another person’s looks to begin with reducing that person to an object to be appraised—valued or dismissed and treating it as acceptable much less a topic of conversation. There’s fail there. However it’s the men’s responses that are the biggest problem and again, I feel Melissa’s post (that I linked to above), addresses why in a much better way that I ever could.
Again, I am sorry that you were hurt and please know that you were not responding in an “out of control” or “irrational” manner. It is actually the man in your life who responded with massive fail.
Kate responded on 27 Mar 2012 at 11:15 pm #
@Diane
Thanks for linking to that post. I thought it was extremely well-written/argued.
Julie responded on 28 Mar 2012 at 1:17 pm #
I love this blog. I’ve been there. I understand this and I’m glad that there are other people tho think this way too.
RRainey responded on 28 Mar 2012 at 2:03 pm #
As cliche as it sounds, beauty is really the eye of the beholder. First, while I understand your need to feel that everyone is beautiful, the truth is that not everyone can be, otherwise, what is special about being “beautiful.” Besides, while you may seek out people that are beautiful in their own ways, I am also pretty sure that you have seen people who are not, and there is nothing wrong in thinking that.
And just from my experiences, people, complete strangers, mostly men, have told me I was beautiful all my life. Never had a boyfriend, kissed one guy, never had sex. 26 years old-no sex. So, to me, it proves that “beauty” is simply not enough.
Kylie responded on 29 Mar 2012 at 8:10 pm #
I feel like crying.
You talk about what so many of us feel: Why can’t people just be accepted?
Though I’ve never had a weight issue, I’ve had really terrible skin issues ever since I was about 8 years old. Nothing has ever worked to get rid of my acne, redness, disgusting dry skin. It’s always the first thing to cover up in the morning with the best make up (and even then, I’m not sufficiently “covered”).
In recent years my skin has cleared, but minimal acne, rough, dry skin, redness and scars are still apparent. My boyfriend is always really good to tell me I’m beautiful, I’m sexy, etc. But then he’ll say that another girl with acne is unattractive because of her blemishes. I relate to your story because it makes me feel like, “Oh, so her and I have the same issue, but she’s ugly and I’m somehow not?” He does the best he can to explain, but at that point I’m already down on myself, unwilling to hear anything positive. I, too, am scared of the one I love coming to think that I am “ugly because of my blemishes.” I then start to worry that he’s lying to me about being beautiful, regardless of the skin issue. It’s terrible to feel so anxious and mistrusting.
Another issue is that I worry about him seeing the “perfect” girls, with the beautifully tan, glowing, unblemished, powdery soft skin and comparing me to them… Anyone with two eyes is able to tell that they have prettier skin than I. And if everyone thinks what my boyfriend does, than those girls are most definitely more attractive. I understand that there are different levels of attractiveness in this world, but all the insecurity gets to me when I start to think that really, truly, beauty is something I cannot have.
But I don’t know how to change it. How to change me.
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