People should talk to each other more
People should talk to each other more. About the things that impact us the most.
About money, for example. It’s taboo. We’re not allowed to tell each other how much or how little we make. Bear complains about this sometimes. He says it prevents workers from learning how far they can go. If you don’t know that your friend in the same industry in a similar position is making more than you because the two of you feel too awkward to discuss it, then you might not ask for a raise. You might not know you deserve one. Not talking about money makes it mysterious. It gives it more power and emotional significance than it deserves.
We should talk to each other about sex. It seems like no one is really sure what’s normal, and everyone is really curious. Sometimes I talk with another woman about sex, and I realize she doesn’t expect her partner to be giving her a lot of pleasure. I am always shocked. I want to tell her to go and talk to a lot more people, and find out what they think about that. I want to know how many women think it’s OK to be in bed with someone who doesn’t seem interested in making them happy. How many guys feel awkward because they don’t know how to act interested in making their partner happy without looking stupid or inexperienced?
And how about love? We should talk more about that. What it feels like, to fall so hard in love that you can’t stop grinning when you’re doing stuff that doesn’t make anyone grin, like riding the subway or standing in line at the post office. It’s corny. It feels ridiculous, to try to explain it. Especially if you’re cynical like me, and you were reading these books about the Holocaust when you were ten, and thinking that Disney should stop objectifying and infantilizing women and glorifying whiteness and emaciation.
We should have more conversations about illness. My father has been sick my whole life, but I’m not really supposed to talk about it.
And death. You know how, when someone’s relative dies, and you say, “I’m so sorry for your loss!” and you send a card and you hug them? And then, a month later, you see them again, and you talk about something else. As though it might be strange or simply boring to keep talking about how they’re feeling about the new empty space in their life. Death just keeps going. It doesn’t neatly resolve itself. It gets woven complicatedly into life.
Maybe we could talk more about how we feel about our bodies. At a very elegant, upscale Manhattan party that I probably didn’t belong at, a high powered woman in a black sequined dress once began to tell me how much pressure she felt to be thin. I felt awkward and interested and unsure what to say, because, well, people just don’t do that. They just don’t do that enough.
And if we ever start talking more openly about the things that we’re thinking and worrying and laughing and crying about, then maybe we can compliment and comfort each other more. Because that would definitely improve things a lot too.
(at least I told her I liked the dress. source)
* * *
Un-roast: Today I love the way I look in motion, walking towards the kitchen, reflected briefly in the dark windows behind the table. My orange shirt is a splash of color, and my body is a piece of performance art.
Kate on January 7th 2011 in Uncategorized
Ashley responded on 07 Jan 2011 at 7:57 pm #
Very well written! I couldn’t agree more.
I never understood why money was such a secret issue to discuss. Years ago, I was working at a pizza parlor in a small town that started me off at min wage. I worked there for 2 years and never got a raise, but at that particular store, most people didn’t get a raise until they because shift leaders. I thought, ok. Well 2 years into my position, I transferred to a different store in a new town and at that place they started new employees off at .50 more, but guess who’s pay rate didn’t change when I transferred? Nope. I even became a trainer to newbies. I was in that position for nearly three years and making LESS than the new kids walking int eh door who I was training. Well I didn’t realize this until 8 months later after I made a good friend to mentioned it to me…imagine how pissed off I was. Mmmhmmm.
Ashley responded on 07 Jan 2011 at 8:02 pm #
So if money was a more openly discussed issue, that might not have happened to me. Believe it or not, I think there is a lot of unfairness in pay rates in the common working place. But it goes unnoticed and/or swept under the rug because it’s supposed to be an issue not to be discussed, even though I really think it should be discussed more.
Valerie responded on 07 Jan 2011 at 8:52 pm #
I think more people should talk about politics, what’s happening in our world, and religion.
Everyone is terrified to voice their opinion because they are afraid that they will offend someone. There is a difference between being argumentative and ready for a rational discussion. Discussing politics and religion does not mean I’m a constant “downer”. There is a difference between pessimism and realism. I know when to have fun and when to be serious.
Somehow, people don’t realize this. I find myself removing myself from social situations because people would rather talk about iPads and Jersey Shore; all day, every day. That doesn’t help me connect with a person. It doesn’t tell me anything about them other than they like…stuff.
Kate responded on 07 Jan 2011 at 8:54 pm #
@Valerie
Thanks for these additions. Very true.
Luyi responded on 07 Jan 2011 at 10:45 pm #
Love, love, LOVE. Excellent topic and very well-put. People should definitely talk more openly. They don’t because society puts so much pressure on outward appearances and thus people filter themselves so much, but in the end, isn’t honesty the true key to friendship? Shouldn’t we be brave enough to be more genuine with each other?
Tanya responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 4:37 am #
Very inspirational words of wisdom. Thank you. =]
San D responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 9:22 am #
I think in this day and age with Twitter, Text Messaging, Email, Texting, we talk all the time. So, it’s not the “talking” that is missing really in our society, it’s what we are all talking about. Some things are personal, like sex, money and religion and can lead to awkward conversations because they are “personal” and quite frankly not anyone’s business. Take salaries for example. I think that is a contract between the employer and employee. I have worked for years as a teacher and our salaries are public. What that has done has made our profession under fire because people take the dollar number and then divide it by hours worked and start to feel that teachers aren’t worth what they make (you know, the old you only work 9 months out of the year, times 7 hours a day argument). Unless you are a teacher, and have experienced the joys and stresses how can anyone assess what I am worth? I worked for years in the personnel department of a bank. I understand the contract of employer to employee. You hire someone to fill a specific job within the money guidelines you have set with certain expectations of the worker. Each job is specific. (We could get into a long debate on female workers vs. male workers and compensation etc, and that is for another blog entry). In the whole scheme of things it is very disruptive if everyone starts comparing their salaries for work they are doing. Everyone starts to watch everyone else to see what they are doing for how much, and the joy of working or contributing to society is lost under the strains and pressures of “compensation”. I have always said to my students “find a job you love, don’t worry about the money, the money will come later on”. Why? because you will exceed the expectations of the job and work your way up because you love what you are doing. My opinion is if you are so concerned with how much you AREN’T making compared to the next guy, you have lost something in the spirit of what you are doing. And that is sad, because again, as I told my students “you will be working for the rest of your life, so do something meaningful to both you and to the job”.
Religion is far more complicated. I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that someone who may be an atheist can be a Cantor and teach 3rd grade in a Synagogue.
Amanda responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 9:28 am #
I completely agree with you, especially about money. One of the main reasons management don’t want you to talk about it is so that they can pay people less. If everyone knew what other people made, there would be demands for raises and other problems.
San D responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 9:58 am #
To add to what Amanda said, yes if you are an employer you do have to worry about the bottom line and profit margins. That is what employers and specifically small business owners do, they try to employ people at a minimum reasonable acceptable rate. Raises and promotions are usually earned through the ‘lifetime’ of the job when the employee proves their loyalty and worth. If you are in a position where you find that you are not moving forward both in self satisfaction with your job and/or in monetary compensation, perhaps you need to find another job.
Valerie responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 11:55 am #
But San D, there are a lot of companies that are crooked and will underpay and mistreat employees to fatten their own pockets. While the do what you love theory is nice, it rarely works in reality. If you were making minimum wage as a teacher, would you still do it? I’ve held plenty of jobs that I loved where the pay was horrible, but starving and wondering if I was going to be able to make rent made the job horrible, over time. Telling people to quit and find a better job, with better pay, that they love in this economy isn’t practical advice, in my opinion. Some people really have to work to eat, not work from love. That’s the reality of life.
I believe that an open discussion on income between employees will cause problems. It will cause the problem of more companies being held accountable for the way they treat their employees. I’ve worked for a lot of companies that felt as though they could treat their employees like indentured servants and, with such a hush hush about what people make and how hard they work for it, they get away with it. The unhappiness and problems that were caused by the way the corporations treated their employees made for a detestable work place in ways that I don’t think an open discussion about income and treatment of employees would.
I also don’t think that religion is complicated. People flaunt their religion in subtle ways or over the top ways. People often ask me why I believe what I believe and I attempt to give them the most coherent answers that I have, but when the same is asked of them (because, honestly, I am curious) I am often met with walls and unbending bias. People always want to question others, but they often don’t spend time reflecting on what they believe and why. I find that a problem. People shouldn’t believe something simply because someone TOLD them to or because it was the only thing that they learned or because they are afraid of the consequences. I feel that more people need to take the time to look at why they believe the things that they do, without fear, and also take the time to look at other options. It’s about learning one’s self and making informed choices; not to mention, learning about diversity and understanding it.
I don’t see the problem with Kate being an atheist and teaching at a Synagogue. Christian teachers still have to cover science and no one finds that weird. Teaching is not supposed to be about pushing your personal beliefs on impressionable children. A teacher is supposed to let the children make their own decisions based on all that they have learned.
San D responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 1:11 pm #
Painting all companies with a broad brush, as you know is dangerous. While there are corrupt companies, they are not as prevalent as you think. Many “exploitive” corporations offer opportunities and perks that are not afforded to your regular job holders; childcare, healthcare, flextime and discounts on the companies’ products are just a few. And yes, I worked as a teacher for $6,000 a year when I first started, which as we all knew at the time was way under minimum wage when you considered all that I did out of love for my students and my job. I have had some pretty crappy jobs in my day as well, even one where I had to remind my boss, a lawyer, that I was guaranteed a raise since the minimum wage had just gone up, but I always learned something from those jobs and was able to parlay that knowledge into another job. You need a job to get a better job, that is the saying nowadays. I know the feeling of not being able to make ends meet with one job, so in those days I worked three. I was much younger than, and again that is the way of the evolution of job holders. You start young make little and work your way up to getting older and making more. And it saddens me to think that many people are working at something they detest. What a way to have a miserable life.
Noel responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 6:08 pm #
We should be able to talk about praying and God as well. I’m in the process of learning more about organized religion, having not grown up with any sort of spiritual/religious guidance, and I’d love to be able to ask everyone — Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Atheists — what they think and why. But bringing up religion in pretty much any situation is so taboo.
Valerie responded on 08 Jan 2011 at 8:37 pm #
Noel, I’d LOVE to talk to you about religion via email. I’m curious about why people believe what they do and have done a lot of research on various religions as of late.
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Andini Rizky responded on 09 Jan 2011 at 2:58 am #
We don’t talk about money because people base their opinion about us on how much money we earn. People treat us based on that information. So if I earn lower, they treat me with less respect. I know this one person who has graduate degree but his income is very low so people think there’s something really wrong with him. Like maybe he’s incompetent, or very stupid because he can’t get a better job. He shouldn’t tell people about his wage, in my opinion.
Just Josie responded on 09 Jan 2011 at 4:55 pm #
I love Valerie’s editions. I’m not interested in the stereotypical things society/the media expects teenaged girls to be interested in; therefore, school has been really isolating for me for the last several years now. Everyone wants to talk about insipid pop culture. Everyone thinks that I’m a downer. And I’m not. It’s just that I’m not going to be a “fun” person around you if I don’t trust you — and how can I possibly trust you if I know nothing about you other than the fact that you like Seventeen Magazine and “The Bachelor”?? And I’m not going to be a “fun” person around you if you trivialize genocide, or you hate gay people, or you hate women or Latino/as. It’s just not going to happen.
Honestly, I’m very confused by myself. I think that humans are wary of being honest, because it makes them more vulnerable, which is understandable. So I’m constantly told by classmates that I don’t trust, or that I’m “frigid”, but really, I’d be willing to open up… I just fail to see how such trite things could possibly bond others. Maybe they’re the ones unwilling to open up. Maybe I’m the “normal” one. Or maybe I’m just more mature than most people my age. I don’t know.
Anyway, I think we should be able to talk about periods more, as women. I mean, come on, since the beginning of time, women have been hushed over that. Actually, I read this one book (I don’t recall its title; sorry) in which it was discussed the possibility that the fear men felt towards women for our ability to, y’know, bleed for a week without dying could be the roots of misogyny. I think the book might have been called “The Roots of Misogyny”, come to think of it. Anyway, I think that’s part of the thing about women’s sexuality not being our own, even though our culture is forever telling us that we’ve now been sexually liberated and that there’s no need for feminism. In America especially, there’s this weird obsession with purity, and then at the same time, we’re completely porn-obsessed. It’s like, we get our sexuality in a package, but that package is completely phallocentric. I mean, most girls and women know more (initially) about male anatomy and sexuality than their own, simply because we have to hear about it all the time — the way men “need” sex (and women don’t?), the way you have to hear about it at school from dickhead boys. Okay, honestly, I’m rambling, but like, maybe it’s just the sex education at my school personally (although I think it can be safely asserted that sex education in America is bullshit across the map), everyone knows male anatomy. The only thing people think of when female anatomy is brought up is “vagina”. Boys at my school (and even some girls! :() believe that females urinate from their vaginas. And back to the periods, everyone (pretty much) knows what they are by the time they’re 11, but young women are called disgusting for talking about it. We can’t safely talk about our own bodily functions without harassment, but males feel entitled to ask us if we’re on our periods based on our moods? And yet we (I say “we” because this is the shared experience of most all girls and young women to whom I have spoken) are forced to listen to them talk about their testicles all the time, which is of course never annoying to hear, especially when much of that talk relates to wanting to put them in my mouth. Good goodness. Men have the privilege of scratching their genitals in public without most people thinking anything other than boys will be boys, and don’t even consider that female genitals sometimes itch. Labia and vulva itch are the worst. If I have to go into the bathroom to relieve myself to keep from being even more ostracized than I already am, you could at least exercise the same courtesy.
By the way, before I’m accused of being a “man-hater” here, it should be known that I’m discussing men *as a construct* rather than individuals, although individuals do unfortunately frequently exhibit many of these churlish behaviors. (Been looking for a reason to use churlish *all week*! :P)
“Especially if you’re cynical like me, and you were reading these books about the Holocaust when you were ten, and thinking that Disney should stop objectifying and infantilizing women and glorifying whiteness and emaciation.”
Aha, I love this sentence! (I did my English 8 thesis on Disney’s objectification of women and the affects it has on little girls, especially girls of color.) I would have loved to have known 10-year-old you; you and I sound very similar at that age (I remember reading “To Kill A Mockingbird and books about AIDS at that age) — not that it’s not very cool to “know” (e-know?) you now.
Unroast: In that long paragraph, there were a couple of times I fought the urge to put “TMI, sorry” (how ironic would that have been in this post?! :D), and “sorry for the length”, but like I said I’m working on the guilty complex, it’s terrible, and I really shouldn’t apologize for expressing my opinions — it just stems from low self-esteem and an inferiority complex. Besides, if I don’t feel that my views are important, who will? 🙂
Valerie responded on 09 Jan 2011 at 6:40 pm #
Brilliant post, Josie.
I went to play paintball with my boyfriend last week and where there are “man sports” there are … well, let’s call them boys, regardless of age. One such annoying subject kept asking the other boys if they were upset because they were “on their period”. I, of course, felt the need to butt in and said, “So what? Women are only allowed to be angry if they’re on their periods? Say that again and I’ll show you that a woman can be angry at any time of the month.”
I then proceeded to ask him if his testicles had dropped yet and pointed out that my insult was based on him, as a person, and his childish behavior and not based on any observations on the male species as a whole, which his insults so stereotypically were and therefore uncreative and inferior.
I don’t think he appreciated me giving him hell though because, sometime between after I insulted him and then shot him in the foot with a paintball for opening fire on others when there wasn’t a game in progress, he left.
I’m all for talking about periods and turning around stereotypes. It’s too bad that I wasn’t a gentle example of womanhood. Maybe he would have stuck around to play longer.
Noel responded on 09 Jan 2011 at 10:54 pm #
Valerie!! Are you on twitter? Let’s chat!! My handle is @frenchchristmas! 🙂
Dana Udall-Weiner responded on 10 Jan 2011 at 8:43 am #
One of the benefits of being a therapist is being able to have such conversations with my clients, and encouraging them to do the same with others. I grew up in a family where talking about meaty and heavy issues (like those you mention) was discouraged. So it has been a true gift to learn about how others live and relate and struggle, since I didn’t have the opportunity to have those conversations for much of my life. I especially like what you wrote about death–people are often confused about what to say, and whether to bring it up.
Sona responded on 10 Jan 2011 at 10:32 am #
Great post – I tend to always talk about these topics, because otherwise life and conversation gets pretty boring and stale! Though I do enjoy talking about pop culture, entertainment and restaurants when I am meeting new people ;).
Kate responded on 10 Jan 2011 at 11:03 am #
@Andini
You’re right, this is a real problem. I think that one of the solutions is people talking more openly about money, but that doesn’t mean people’s ideas about it will change instantaneously. Maybe if how much people earn wasn’t a powerful secret, but just another fact about them, then people would realize more and more that your friend doesn’t earn a small amount of money because he’s stupid or a failure, he earns that much because of all of these other reasons, just like people who earn a lot of money don’t necessarily arrive at their position in life by being brilliant and wildly talented. If we begin to understand the details of each story, the stories become less glamorous or pitiful. They become more familiar and real.
Ellie Di responded on 11 Jan 2011 at 10:35 am #
Yesyesyes! It’s like we’re emotionally constipated as a culture (or even as a species). We need to interact more on these “taboo” subjects so that we understand ourselves and each other more deeply.
Paula responded on 11 Jan 2011 at 8:23 pm #
Okay the line about being emotionally constipated just cracked me up.
I think there’s a lot to be learned from listening but there’s a lot of subtle judgement that happens no matter what choice someone makes.