Eat the Damn Cake

fidelity: how big of a deal should it be?

38 Responses to “fidelity: how big of a deal should it be?”

1. Emmi responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 1:47 pm #

   I believe in monogamy for myself in my current relationship, which is something I came to after much careful thought. I have never cheated on a partner, but I have been in nontraditional relationships before with plenty of love and happiness and fun – and I was always honest about what I wanted for myself and from others involved. It has always come easy to me, being honest. When I didn’t know what I wanted, I was upfront about that too, and it led to a heck of a lot less hurt in the end. I feel that the best way to be moral is to be honest with yourself and the people you care about.

   For a weird example, it drives my husband crazy that I will throw away the ends of loaves of bread, or just leave them in the bag when I open a new loaf. I hate the heels! And the slice or two right next to them. They get all icky and stale and even though I try not to be wasteful this is one case where I am. Yesterday he begged me to finish an old loaf before starting a new one. I said to him, “I can lie to you and say yes, of course I will do that in the future – but the truth is, I won’t. I am never going to use those pieces of bread and I am sorry that it bothers you. Would you rather I throw the heels away so they don’t upset you, or would you rather I leave them for you?” Saying that totally defused an impending squabble, and he asked that I leave them for him, and declared that I was beyond odd. I agreed.

   Monogamy is a way my husband and I keep our relationship special. However, I think it is absolutely not the only way to do that, nor should it always be required for relationships. People have different needs and it has always flummoxed me that one person should want to tell another how to live. Why should my best way be THEIR best way, or vice versa? Isn’t diversity one of the most beautiful things? Would a rainbow be as special if it was only one color?

   Thank you for posting about this <3

2. L responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 1:48 pm #

   For me, personally, infiedelity is such a touchy subject, but i think its amazing that you have the strength to talk about it openly and not wholeheartedly condemn it.
   Let me tell you, i’m ‘ther other woman’ in a relationship, in short i am aware of the fact that my lover is married, i know his wife and family, and yes, it destroys me, seeing them and knowing i am essentially what, if anything, is going to be the downfall of their idyllic lives.
   ‘the oether person’ i can assure you, most likely does not get kicks out of splitting relationships up, nor do they feel powerful, generally they have fallen in love with someone, with whom they could envisage a future, at a time in which the other person already HAS a future, which, on paper doesn’t include them. in my case, if i’d been born, say, twenty years before i was, i may have a chance with my lover, but i have to respect that he already has a life, which has been going on for twenty six years before i even existed.
   However, i would also dissapprove of our conduct in an other situation, hypocrisy, yes, but i would consider him havig any more ‘other women’ as infidelity to me, and, if we were ever to have a future, would not accept any form of extra marital activities, no matter how insignificant.
   the thing is, there are two types of infidelity: the physical, and the emotional, and its generally the latter which ruind relationships, because if something is lacking physically, it can generally be found, whereas emotions are impossible just to create.

   Ok, that’s a very long comment, but i just found it fascinating that you dont outright dissapprove of infidelity, although i can understand that an affair is, really, morally unjustifiable, but that the people who embark on affaires arent usually evil or thoughtless, just often sad and lonely
   x

3. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 1:49 pm #

   @Emmi
   Thanks for this comment. And I love the little story about the bread.

4. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 1:52 pm #

   @L
   I’ve definitely had friends in this situation, and I’m sorry that you find yourself in it now. I remember how incredibly painful it was for them, and how conflicted they felt.

   As much as people want to simplify human interaction and tell everyone that this is right and this other thing is categorically wrong, it just can’t be that easy. We’re messy and unpredictable and complicated.

5. Joy responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 1:55 pm #

   I think I am with you on this: “I do know that being faithful to one person has always felt to me like a big part of what makes marriage marriage.” Although, if the partners agree on an open relationship in advance, more power to them. I wonder if there is data on how well that actually works?
   I know in my head, and I’ve stated out loud, if you’re going to cheat, why wouldn’t you just get divorced and move on? I have no moral issue with sex outside of marriage, but cheating on your partner is pretty low in my opinion. I am pretty sure I could not forgive that. Women who decide to forgive their husbands and continue on seem like doormats with no self esteem to me (in a hypothetical way – I don’t know that I personally know anyone who has been in this situation). I suppose the same would be true of a guy who stayed married to his cheating wife. If you don’t want to be monogamous, why get married? Seems odd to me, but maybe it is just the way our society is framed.

6. Andrew responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 3:06 pm #

   Fidelity is a great thing, but it’s not inherently human. I’m sure you’ve heard the biological/psychological theory: humans are polygamous, meaning that men tend to want many partners, and women tend to want one partner*. Even standing to benefit from this possibility, it gives me the creeps. It seems unfair. Things aren’t usually fair, but this seems excessively unfair.

   And so, from my perspective as a male — and one who dislikes seeing intelligent women being completely owned by Darwinism — I mostly agree with your ursine other half regarding the message of “Eat, Pray, Love.” (sorry for the quotes, I don’t know how to code in comments) Woman wakes up one day and realizes she’s been with an imperfect, sickeningly normal man for years. Disgusted with her lack of drive, she leaves him, does a bunch of fun stuff all over the world and eventually finds a much hotter guy. You go, girl!

   But wait, does she really “go”? Is it really such an admirable trait to be married — married! look at how faklempt the gay community of NYC is about the sheer possibility of being able to get married — and suddenly catch this wave of opportunism? I can’t stand when people are constantly looking for the “next great thing” to hit their love lives, when they’ve already locked down the previous “next great thing.” I’ve been lucky enough that I’ve only been on the wrong end of that scenario in the residual sense, but I’ve always hated seeing it. It’s a step backwards. Elizabeth Gilbert is the cavewoman who looked around and found a taller, stronger alpha caveman with a less prominent forehead, a fuller beard, and a sexier accent for his grunts. Should we really be celebrating that? Is that where we are as a society? Furthermore, do we want to go down that path, even from the perspective of the romantically upwardly mobile woman? If women are to be applauded for climbing the ladder of overall male attractiveness, what happens when men let their basic instincts drive their dealings? They seek other opportunities, they try to round up several women to “conquer,” and today’s woman becomes the prototypical “victim of a greedy, selfish, boorish pig of a ‘man.'”

   No. There needs to be a better way, because a world where everyone follows their heart eventually converges to a world where 100% of women are being “cheated on,” and 80% of men are hopelessly out of luck. And within a few generations, the average human has 11.4 toes.

   The answer to this devolution is fidelity. Fidelity is a compromise. Perhaps you’ve been in a situation in which you stop desiring people other than your monogamous partner. I haven’t. I don’t know men who have. I would go as far as to say that if a man tells you he feels that way, there’s upwards of a 90% chance that he’s just flat-out lying. Fidelity, for men, is not an instinctual reaction to a situation. It is a choice. I like my girlfriend, and I’m glad I’m dating her. I understand that to reap the benefits of being with her, I have to hold up my end of the deal, partially by refraining from going out and doing my best Tiger Woods impression**. This doesn’t mean that we faithful men don’t have some desire for other women, it means we ignore those desires in the name of our relationships. It also helps to avoid situations in which fidelity is commonly tested. I just don’t think people always realize that the most basic aspect of monogamy requires self-control and sacrifice from the male. This goes for women who think monogamy is simply a case of “why would I want anyone else?” and men who think it’s fine to let their genitalia guide their decisions when it comes to women.

   Kate, I certainly agree with you that people should let swingers exist. If two people can agree on that, mazel tov. The concept of people fornicating outside of their marriages/relationships whenever the mood strikes is a slippery slope, though. It would surely work for some people, but I can’t see it making marriages stronger on the whole; I mostly see it drawing people apart. In a vacuum, people drawn apart in such a manner would part amicably and go back to being (happily?) single. We don’t exist in a vacuum, though. Cheating clears your head, maybe makes you happier, but I can’t see it bringing you closer to the person on whom you’re cheating. I had a long-distance pseudo-relationship a few years ago where it was understood we were free to do whatever, and each time I exercised my option of “doing whatever,” I found myself questioning whether it was worth it to put so much work into the pseudo-relationship.

   “Eat, Pray, Love” is a wonderful exercise in hypocrisy. The notion that following your heart and desires, doing what “feels right,” will lead you to happiness, is true if you’re the only person doing so. It doesn’t work if everyone you meet also takes on your beautifully carefree philosophy. The male version of “Eat, Pray, Love” would be absurd. Women would hate it. It would be the most chauvinistic movie imaginable. The plot could be made into a Lifetime movie, told from the wife’s perspective.

   * Of course, there are exceptions; humans TEND to be attracted to the opposite sex, but that doesn’t mean gay people don’t exist.

   ** I don’t golf.

7. Andee responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 3:15 pm #

   I am getting married in just over a month, and that article about Dan Savage got me thinking. I love the man I will marry; I love him beyond reason. I love him so big and so much that I can’t find the edges of it. I love him so much that infedility wouldn’t kill what we have. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not condoning cheating, but aren’t relationships (especially long-term committed relationships) about more than sex? I know that it would be devestating if either of us were to stray outside the confines of what we have deemed acceptable, but I think we have built so much more than could be destroyed with cheating. Perhaps if it were an affair that went on for quite a while it would ruin us.

   Don’t misunderstand me; I hope and pray we will never have to deal with this sort of thing. It’s just another side to look at I guess.

8. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 3:17 pm #

   @Andee
   Thanks for this extremely articulate take. I feel that way, too, but it’s incredibly hard to express. I can’t imagine what I have with Bear being destroyed, even as I imagine how destructive cheating would be.

9. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 3:27 pm #

   @Andrew
   Interesting, and thoroughly put. I have to say, I actually DO believe that some guys don’t desire other women when they are monogamous. But maybe this is partially semantics. Maybe they would, but the “ignoring” bit you mentioned amounts to the same thing.

   Also, as a woman who has cheated on guys, I never got the sense that women don’t want to do that and men do. It was always me. And when I found someone who I wasn’t going to cheat on, it was totally clear to me. That desire was gone. I don’t think that sense is gendered, I think it just is.

   I like how carefully you think about this stuff. And I was interested in your reaction to Eat, Pray, Love! Maybe you’re right…if it had been written by a man, the outcome would’ve been significantly less empowering.

   At the same time, it’s hard for me to imagine wanting to deny someone the opportunity to find fulfilling love. That sounds cheesy. But I think there’s value in having the ability to leave a relationship that doesn’t make you happy. I don’t know that I can chalk everything up to selfishness and leave it at that. Being in a happy relationship has made it really clear to me that I would do anything for this. That it’s incredibly important to me. Should people stay with partners who don’t fulfill them, for the sake of fidelity and responsibility?

   There might not be a straightforward answer. Or at least, there are a lot more questions, first.

10. Andrew responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 3:46 pm #

    @ Kate

    Sometimes I let my comments on specific (albeit common) behaviors turn into blanket statements. Re-reading my post, I don’t think I fully indicated the reality of women cheating on men. I didn’t mean to suggest that things only happen one way. Clearly there are an infinite number of personalities out there (well, infinite up to 6.8 billion).

    As for men not desiring other women, it’s true to an extent: I knew I was ready for a relationship when I realized I was no longer AS interested in one-night stands, or at least those with women who were below a certain threshold of overall attractiveness (not just physical). All I needed to see was that something had changed. 11 months later, there have been no problems on that front.

11. bethany actually responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 4:01 pm #

    My best friend of 30+ years had an affair a couple of years ago with a married man. She was married and had two young kids, and so was the guy she had the affair with. It ended up destroying both their families, and she and the guy she had the affair with ended up getting married and they seem happy enough, but…her kids are not the same. They were secure and happy before and all they’ve been through in the past few years has left them sullen and insecure and wary of getting close to anyone. And my friend insists that what they did was only about them and their ex-spouses, but their actions have affected everyone they know in some way. Even though I was genuinely as supportive as I knew how to be towards my friend during all the craziness, because I didn’t unreservedly say, “I think if you’re happy that is the most important thing! Do whatever you want and damn the consequences! Oh, and please do introduce me to this fine fellow who not only helped you shred your family, but who sneaked around behind his wife’s back and broke her heart!” she pretty much lost all use for me. I wasn’t preaching to her about sin and hellfire for her licentious ways, or anything like that, but I did express concern for her kids and say I was sad her marriage was ending because it’s sad when a partnership of 11 years is broken with hurt feelings on both sides, however it ends. She took that to mean I was judging her (I wasn’t) and basically ended our friendship.

    Thanks to these experiences with infidelity, I’m pretty strongly on the side of fidelity. I’ve seen how awful it can be when someone breaks a promise in such a sneaky way. (Coming right out and saying to your partner, “Look, I have a problem with you, and it’s making me want to leave you and find someone else” is completely different and I have zero problem with that.)

12. Deanna responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 4:22 pm #

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm…I guess if both parties agree that monogamy is not natural, then who are we to protest. If either party is not happy with polygamy then it won’t work. I can’t see anything good coming from cheating…best case scenario is that no one finds out and the affair dissolves.

    I’m going to be mean and painfully honest here and say that I am disturbed about the Other Woman who posted. Why do you always hear about men taking on lovers 20 or more years younger than they are, but almost never hear about the opposite. Older women can be traded in like old shoes or a dated suit…and there always seems to be plenty of hot young babes out there waiting to move in. I really hate that. I hate it mostly because I am over 40 and I hear over and over again how so many husbands are finding much younger women to have affairs with. If I hear about one 50 year old having an affair or a relationship with – say – a 46 year old…everyone is up in arms. My advise is stay away from married men….period.

    When I was 24 and single a 50 year old married co-worker was interested in me. I liked him but I would never cheat with him. How could his 50 year old wife compete with me..so unfair and I was afraid of Karma too because one day I too would be old.

13. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 4:29 pm #

    @Deanna
    I hear that. I’m 25, and already I’m conscious of the fact that one day I will be 50, and there will be plenty of 25 yr olds in the world who are willing to be with men a lot older than them. I don’t want to have to compete with them. I want to be so beyond that type of competition, and it’s horrible to imagine that they might in any way be a threat to me.

    At the same time, it’s easy to blame someone without knowing the specifics of their situation. I had a friend who fell for a guy without knowing he was married and then found it really hard to stop after she found out.

    In that situation, and others like it, I felt furious at the married partner, who was cheating, rather than at the other partner, who wasn’t responsible for someone else.

    Gah, it’s complicated!

14. San D responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 4:36 pm #

    I think supporting the idea of recognizing that some people have the need to cheat in their relationship looks awfully good on paper, but in reality “hurts like a big dog” as evidenced by bethany’s comments above. I believe in monogamy and, the truth being, committed to one human being means compromise and work along with love, laughter and tears, especially when we start talking “decades” in the relationship. Also the word “cheat” can apply to not only physical cheating but emotional “cheating” as well, where the physical line is not crossed, but where one spouse relies on another person other than their partner for emotional shoring up. While it is true that during our human early history, the male had nature’s imperitive to spawn, and that the act of sex alone is not necessarily an emotional bond, I think it is a betrayal of trust. Ask Maria Schriver. Committed relationships are built on a solid foundation, which may get rattled every once in awhile with disasters that are unimaginable (death of a child, cancer in a spouse, etc), but if built correctly endure. If one decides to erode the foundation by eliminating bricks and secretly or even openly start building another foundation, the whole relationship collapses, no matter how beautiful the relationship looks to others. Like Tiger Woods’ marriage, or 50% of the marriages in our country that result in divorce. Of course not all divorces are results of cheating, but then again, marriage should not be like returning a dress to Bergdorffs because it is out of style, you don’t like it, you want another one or it makes you look fat.

15. Brigid responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    I think that cheating and nonmonogamy are different things. Like, if you have a partner and you both agree to be nonmonogamous, then having sex with other people isn’t cheating. But something else might still be, like having sex with other people without protection. And even if you are monogamous, you might not consider kissing another person to be cheating. And someone else might consider things to be cheating that aren’t even explicitly sexual.

    I agree with you the thing about people who want to be nonmonogamous doing that and everyone else leaving them alone. I’m familiar with Dan Savage’s views on monogamy, and I agree with him IN THAT it should be more socially acceptable to recognize that you don’t want to be monogamous, if you don’t. It would cut down on the lying and the hurting and the judgement.

    But then there are the rest of us, who really want monogamy. I’m glad you wrote this post because, like Bear, I hate stories where people cheat on each other. Leaving each other — divorce — I’m okay with. But cheating terrifies me. I’ve never cheated or (to the best of my knowledge) been cheated on, and I wonder if I had before I got married, would it seem less scary, now that I’ve found the person I want and intend to spend my life with? Probably not, I think. And I also think that even if I wanted to be polyamorous, being cheated on (however that would be defined for me) would probably still be scary. Because it’s the violation of trust that matters.

16. Deanna responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 5:55 pm #

    Cheating is just wrong and it ruins a marriage. Why do so many men cheat? I don’t know many women who do, but that’s because of my age…it really makes me mad.

17. Yan responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    I have mixed feelings on fidelity, and I conclude that it doesn’t suit for all relationships and all occasions. And I cannot condone cheating. I don’t think they are the same. The romantic relationships I’ve had are about so much more than sex, generally, so insisting on fidelity to preserve the relationship seems — well, it seems too one-note. But cheating — the lying that is inherent in cheating, well trust IS a major element in a good relationship for me, so cheating would be an issue.

    My S.O. and I have an agreement that lying is not an option. Sleeping with other people might be.

18. San D responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 8:08 pm #

    @yan

    I really don’t know how that works.-No lying but sleeping with other people might be an option.-How does one “fess up” that they would like to sleep with someone else and then do it, and not lie about it, but tell the S.O. Somehow that just doesn’t compute in my brain. I can’t ever forsee a time where I would sleep with someone else and then let my husband know because I wouldn’t want to lie to him. Of course that might add spice to some relationships, and I guess I could imagine that scenerio, but in my world, all I can say is “ew”. Of course I don’t understand polygamy or Charlie Sheen’s goddesses either.

19. Raven responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 9:16 pm #

    That part about poly-fidelity being ok for some and not for others and each to their own? I’m with you there. I’m polyamorous, but I’m not out to recruit my monogamous friends; this is just what works for mean and the partners with whom I share my life.

    It took me a long while to deprogram all the sex = fidelity messages that were getting in the way of my philosophy. I did it, because the feeling of jealousy was destructive and I didn’t like the way I acted even when I *thought* my partner was with someone else, even if we had an agreement to do so. But again, that’s what I felt was important to me. I wanted to be true to my ideals. It’s definitely not for everyone, and I’ve made the mistake of dating people who were monogamous and deciding it was better in the long run to part amicably than fall apart unreasonably.

    And for most people who identify under the poly banner, this isn’t about sex. We end up redefining for our relationships what fidelity means. Maybe it’s being there for comfort and companionship, maybe it’s vowing to help raise each other’s children, or maybe it’s about sharing a communal house and its equity and being there for each other.

    Monogamy is one way of bonding, and it works for some. In my family, it works to have a network of “chosen” family to rely upon and with whom we share a lot more than physical intimacy. If we choose to add someone to our personal circle, we have to be open about that. It’s only “cheating” to hide it; and anyone willing to be so deceptive isn’t worthy of another’s trust and fidelity no matter how one defines that term.

    I’m glad you and Bear have a working relationship, and thinking about non-monogamy can be interesting, but it’s clearly not the path for either of you. It’s those sorts of agreements that keep things working, right? ^_^

20. Jenny responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 9:30 pm #

    “I think that cheating and nonmonogamy are different things.”

    I’m glad you said this — I was going to. I think it’s important to realize that Dan Savage is not advocating cheating or infidelity. He’s just saying that marriage does not have to mean monogamy *if both parties agree* and follow the terms they have negotiated for themselves as a couple. This isn’t a threat to or a mandate imposed on couples who choose monogamy, it’s just an expansion of the possible ways of doing marriage.
    None of the people in the anecdotes above, it sounds like, were in consensually non-monogamous marriages, which is why their sex with other people was clearly cheating, though, again sex with other people is not always cheating.

21. Laura responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 10:24 pm #

    I’m finding this post and some of the comments a bit hard to take, for some reason. I think this is a hard issue to be black & white about. I think open marriages or open relationships are just fine as long as the parties to that relationship are okay with it. I think that in order for it to qualify as “cheating” there must be an element of sneaking around, deceiving, hiding. If it’s out in the open and everyone’s happy, that’s not cheating.

    I don’t understand why Elizabeth Gilbert is the yardstick for a post about cheating. She was in an unhappy relationship where her husband was expecting her to give him children and she just didn’t want children. She found they wanted different things out of life. She divorced her husband, she subsequently got into another relationship (and I don’t think there’s any basis on which to state that she got into a relationship with a hotter guy. That was just Javier Bardem the actor!) It seems to me that anyone who has a problem with her actions is implying that nobody should ever divorce, no matter how miserable they are. I have a hard time with that and it’s not sitting well with me that her name is being dragged through the mud as a cheater here.

22. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 10:37 pm #

    @Jenny
    Beat me to it. I agree that that’s an important clarification. Cheating and non-monogamy are different. The first doesn’t include everyone who should be included in the decision.

23. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 10:40 pm #

    @Laura
    Elizabeth Gilbert isn’t a yardstick here. Check out what I said under her picture (which I included as a touch of humor, and because I needed a picture for the post!). I mention her in the beginning because I think it’s funny that Bear feels sensitive about her book.

    I try to keep things a little light, even when I’m writing about something serious, or something I’m trying to figure out.

    But I definitely notice that the light parts get interpreted, um, heavily, when the post is heavy. Sigh. Writing, like relationships, is complicated.

24. Kate responded on 25 Jul 2011 at 10:44 pm #

    Also, this post originally included a paragraph about divorce, and how I think it’s really, really good that that option exists for people. But then it got too convoluted to be writing about all of this stuff at once.

    And, to the people who talk about how it’s cheating that’s the real, horrible problem here: I cheated on people, and that is also really complicated. It’s easy to moralize in the same breath as being accepting and open-minded, and while I don’t condone cheating, I understand that sometimes things happen that are more complex than “it’s wrong, don’t do it.”

25. L responded on 26 Jul 2011 at 5:12 am #

    @Deanna
    I see what you mean about the competition between the much older, married woman and the younger Other woman, but from my perspective, i actually feel inferior as the younger woman, i haven’t as much life experience, i worry that my tendency to not feel young isnt obviously evident, and thus that my ‘lover’ will at some point think i’m just a naive little kid, whereas i truly have never related to my peers, and my closest friedships have always been with people who are about twenty years older than me, and thus my relationships are always likely to be with older people. I sometimes wonder if, when i’m in my 40’s i will not be able to relate to 40 year olds, and spend my time with people in their 60’s, or whether by that time age will have become less of an issue?
    I know this sounds pathetic, but i do feel deeply insecure about the situation in which i find myself, how could i ever compete with this beautiful (she’s really very attractive), mature, experienced mother of his children when i’m really nothing special?
    I do, however, appreciate your honesty 🙂

26. Tatiana responded on 26 Jul 2011 at 11:11 am #

    I think it’s so interesting that you got so many comments for this post! The issue of fidelity and monogamy seems to get very many people riled up.

    And I am definitely one of those people.

    I vehemently disagree with the premise that monogamy isn’t inherit to human nature. It negates this idea that we have control over the choices that we make and that humans are little more than slaves to biological processes. This is beyond unacceptable.

    To me, cheating is one of the greatest signs of weakness a human can display because it means that you’re unwilling to address an issue that exists either within you or your relationship.

    Emotions are not beyond critical examination,and it takes a great deal of self-examination to be constantly aware of what you’re feeling and why. This isn’t easy, but is vital in a relationship with both yourself and others. And I believe that this is where cheating originates.

    This isn’t about controlling feelings, but understanding them and acting accordingly. It’s very difficult to make decisions that don’t hurt anyone’s feelings (if not impossible) but that doesn’t mean conversations can’t happen between individuals.

    One of my philosophical premises is that humans aren’t complicated and instead craft elaborate personal stories and histories in order to complicate issues. Saying a relationship/feelings are “complicated” is an extension of that – which I don’t agree with. You either know, or you don’t – and it is in this non-knowing that pseudo-complexity is bred.

27. Kate responded on 26 Jul 2011 at 11:32 am #

    @Tatiana
    I think that’s true– you either know or you don’t. But when you don’t know, sometimes you don’t realize that you can know. And there are a lot of complications there.

    I also agree that the argument that monogamy isn’t inherent to human nature falls flat and feels offensive. We aren’t slaves to biology. That’s clearly untrue. But we also aren’t always in a position where we’re even close to fully in control. We have to learn. And learning requires mistakes.

28. Deanna responded on 26 Jul 2011 at 11:42 am #

    @L

    I think we may be more alike than you think…at least as it involves younger and older woman. When I was young I always felt that older men would not find me attractive only because I was immature and not experienced in life. I had a boyfriend who dumped me for an older woman and I felt so ‘silly’ next to her. I was younger..and younger usually means prettier or at least fresher, but that was not important to him.

    Things have changed. It seems that looks and youth are way more important to men today than they were 20 years ago. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just remember the men I knew seemed to like smart, experienced and talented women. Hot babes were considered bimbos. Since the mid 90s being a bimbo or being slutty seems to be the new standard. Yikes!

    I just feel that with age things start going wrong with the body…we don’t look as good even if we try and it’s hard competing with someone 20 years younger. It’s a losing battle especially since looks seem to be so important.

    I hope things work out.

29. Emily responded on 26 Jul 2011 at 12:49 pm #

    I’m not going to go off on a tangent (although I could), but all I know is the feeling I experienced when my ex-boyfriend cheated on me. I walked into his bedroom and found him with another woman. The damage this did to my self-esteem and faith has been severe and it has taken me years to feel like myself again. I truly believe that infidelity is one of the worst things you can do to someone you love and I urge ALL of you to seriously think about the reprecussions before you make that kind of decision.

30. Alii Silverwing responded on 26 Jul 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    @Andrew

    I am rather disappointed in your take on men in general. I *very* much disagree that men are naturally and inherently chauvinistic. I realize you’re speaking from experience and observation, but I also have experienced and observed and would posit that someone could easily write an ‘Eat, Pray, Love’ story along the theme of shedding complacency and dissolving unsatisfactory relationships with a male protagonist. It IS possible to fall out of love simply because of personality drift. You can still remember the person you loved fondly, but you don’t have to be tied to them when the relationship is no longer working. People grow and change and expecting the relationship to not do the same is, um, naive. Yes, it’s scary, but if two individuals are communicating and honest with each other, then they will be going through the changing relationship together and it will be less scary, even if they decide that things aren’t working out.

    I also disagree heartily that men feel the need to cheat more than women do. I think that it’s more acceptable for men to cheat, perhaps more expected, and perhaps it’s more detrimental for women to cheat, but I haven’t seen a study that proved to me that men want to cheat more than women want to cheat. People are people, whether they’re male or female.

    I’m mostly confused at this discussion because marriage is not the same thing as monogamy, they’re just closely associated because of history and inheritance. I am pretty sure our ‘love match’ concept of marriage (where we go into sanctioned monogamous relationships based on personal preference) is new and different and people follow its implicit rules blindly. Women used to have paramours, men had mistresses, and over the centuries in western culture (at least) this has been accepted to varying degrees. Marriage has happened for reasons other than sexual compatibility (even in modern days), and some people can love each other even with no sexual element and consider that more than enough reason to marry. Like the Dan Savage conversation above – there is more than one type of marriage you can have.

    Still, I mostly just want to make the point that just because you’re married you can’t ignore discussions on the topic of sexual preference and monogamy and assume that everyone will stay on the same page over time. People /assume/ that marriage is monogamy and then fret and worry over whether or not their partner agrees. Just ASK whether or not they agree, for goodness sakes. It’s easy and painless and makes everyone rest easier. Don’t just assume that marriage will protect your heart because it’s some grotesque hybrid of holy and secular and social construction, but talk to your partner and hammer out the parameters of your relationship. If you want fidelity to be a big deal, then make fidelity a big deal. 🙂 Monogamous relationships aren’t with hypothetical significant others or sexbots or clairvoyants, but people who are both human and not psychic.

    I’ve been in a monogamous relationship for a decade and it’s been my experience that I have no desire to cheat on my boyo AND I still lust after the pretties. I choose not to cheat because although I find other bodies desirous (I’m human), I trust, am honest with, respect, love, honor, and communicate with my boyo. He’s my primary relationship and he takes precedence in my considerations on sexual matters. If I were dissatisfied enough with the relationship to lie to him or disregard him when it came to a sexual decision I had previously agreed upon, then we wouldn’t be together anymore. If he decided to lie to me or disregard my preferences, the same thing would happen.

    … yes. I have very strong feelings about this, can you tell? 🙂

31. m responded on 01 Aug 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    i think every one has very valid points, and this is not black and white (nothing is right?).. i am 26 and have been married for 6 years and have 2 kids.. (6 & 3) i think the problem i would have with cheating would be more in the line of disloyalty and lying, not necessarily something physical..
    i have been thinking a lot about this lately.. my father died 5 months ago, he was sick for 3 years before that (not terminally ill.. he had some problems with walking, and died very suddenly…) but my mom was “lonely” and found some “old friend” from another country on the internet.. they started talking (my dad had no idea) and she married that guy a month ago… she does NOT get tired of saying she didnt cheat (i guess she means she didnt sleep with that man) but i think that the fact that she knew my dad would be not ok with her calling some dude everynight and talking for hours and keeping it a secret makes it cheating… and as someone said before it affects everyone.. my brother is heartbroken, he wont say but his image of the perfect woman is shattered; for me my dad was the most awesome, pure hearted and passionate man on earth and she got tired because he couldnt go out as often? mmm.. no; and she goes around telling everyone who will listen that she has done nothing wrong…
    my husband, as kate´s husband gets angry just at the mention of infidelity.. we have talked about this, and he says the only reason he can see for someday divorcing me is if i would cheat (he says he´ll take the kids as well) and i think i would also be devastated if he did, but somehow i feel that if he slept with some random woman on a random night, i would be able to forgive him.. but if he did what my mom did.. sneak around, develop feelings for someone else…i could not get past that…
    this is very complicated and should be something couples agree on.. what you can live with and what you can´t … the most important thing is not to hurt someone you love (or used to love, i think) if you can avoid it.. you have to be happy and be true to yourself.. but you should also be careful with others peoples hearts and do the least damage possible, if any.

    im sorry for the super long post… but this has been on my mind for a long time.. and it has had a huge impact on me…

32. CM responded on 04 Aug 2011 at 12:46 am #

    Andrew
    the most recent statistics we have on cheaters shows that over the past century womens’ ‘rate of cheating’ has increased and has correlated with the increase in their economic opportunities and autonomy over the past century. So the most relevant factor at work here is pure opportunity and ability to cheat, not gender, at least according to the evidence we have.

    Also, I want to challenge this notion that women were programmed by evolutionary biology to want only monogamy. There are new studies in this area that show that ancient women would have used poly-amorous relationship networks to guarantee protection and provision of food, and monogamy was wanted by men to guarantee paternity of the children he was taking care of. Many cultures operated under this dynamic for thousands of years. The point is, there isn’t an absolute male drive to promiscuity and a correspondingly absolute passive female drive for monogamy. In all areas of life, evolution has created such complex biological structures and organisms by pitting complex systems against one another-a biological arms race, if you will. In this case human sexuality is so efficient and expansive because both genders are hard-wired by their instincts to spread there genes as much as possible (drives which we should be very careful not to over-simplify). Both genders were programmed to act in their best interest, that’s the only conclusion one can make for sure on this topic. However, like many above have noted, Evolutionary drives aren’t the only factor that determine our behavior (culture and upbringing might have a far larger impact on behavior) and can be controlled by the conscious mind.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/21/magazine/men-women-sex-and-darwin.html?src=pm

33. Beauzeaux responded on 04 Aug 2011 at 11:21 pm #

    Elizabeth Gilbert left her husband because SHE was having an affair and he found out. The real story isn’t as romantic as the book but there you are…

34. Smorgasboard of Awesome #4 | Ega Jones responded on 08 Aug 2011 at 9:49 am #

    […] Eat the Damn Cake, Fidelity: How Big of a Deal Should it Be? […]

35. Imagine responded on 12 Aug 2011 at 1:48 am #

    I’ve just read the beginning of Eat Pray Love, and I immediately suspected that the reason for her divorce was infidelity. Her immediate move-in with her new guy and the way she described their passionate love affair that quickly fizzled out after things got real screamed affair to me. Which is why I’m having a hard time believing that she’s had any spiritual journey as she seems to deny any of her responsibility in the end of her marriage.

    Anyway, I randomly came across this blog because I was googling if she really did cheat and I got sucked in. I know a LOT about infidelity having been cheated on. I’ve read books and countless personal experiences. And oh, I see so many naive opinions about cheating and marriage here that I wish I could change.

    I don’t care about open marriages – whatever floats your boat. But cheating at its core is about lying and deceit. And in probably 95% of cases it’s about the cheater, not the person being cheated on. So for those who think they won’t cheat now because of the person they’re with, please tread carefully.

    Relationships have ups and downs and people fall in and out of love. It’s very easy to be tempted to stray during a down time in a relationship, when you’re not “in love” anymore.

    But that’s the point of a committment – through thick and thin. Love is a verb, not a feeling. It’s a choice. To end a marriage, or start an affair, because you’ve fallen out of love is the dumbest thing you can do, because you’ll only end up in the same place in your next relationship. You will never be satisfied.

    Does that mean you have to be unhappy? NO. But if a committment means anything to you, you have to take responsibility for your happiness and work on your relationship. To cheat or divorce without even trying to work on it or let your spouse work on it is a problem with you, not your spouse.

    Anyway, most people who cheat never think they will – it can so easily happen. Everything’s great in the beginning and there’s no reason to think you will. But inevitably, marriages will have some rocky points and you may think you’re not with the right person. For all you newlyweds out there – THAT’S NORMAL! What that means is you have to start working on it – communicating what’s wrong, marriage counseling, whatever. If it doesn’t work then divorce, but cheating is never justified.

    I’ve reconciled with my husband, but its been more difficult than you can ever imagine. Neither of us ever imagined that cheating would cause so much pain, and neither did his other woman. It sucks for everyone.

    I know this is long, but if I can help one person avoid this painful situation (and it’s painful – for me, my cancer was much easier to deal with) it would make me so happy.

    And for those who find themselves the other woman: be very, very careful with your heart. The statistics that it will work out for you are very low and there can be a lot of pain waiting for you on the other side. And I say this out of concern for you. If you think he loves you, make him decide and don’t take excuses because there will always be one. I think many don’t do this because they’re afraid deep down that he won’t choose them – but if that’s the case, then better to know now than later. Sadly for you, statistically the majority choose their wife if the affair is found out. You deserve better than sharing a man – give him an ultimatum and don’t take excuses. If he really wants to be with you, he’ll do it.

36. Why I Don’t Support Polyamory « parisianfeline responded on 18 Aug 2011 at 10:14 pm #

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37. Amy responded on 12 Oct 2011 at 10:43 am #

    Interesting subject and interesting opinions on it.

    I am jealous and possessive. I’d be incredibly hurt and angry if my husband cheated on me. I want to be the only woman in his life.

    I understand that he might occasionally look at other women. I’m not dead either, I am attracted to other men.

    It’s nice to be admired and wanted by other men…and relaxing to revel in the attention without feeling the need to act upon it.

    If for some reason my husband wanted to divorce me I would have a HUGE problem handing over our children to him and/or another woman for visits. I would balk at that with every fiber of my being.

38. Kristine responded on 07 Nov 2011 at 10:03 pm #

    i do not think cheating is ever ok. i think an open relationship is totally ok. i think a monogamous relationship that is occasionally open is also ok. neither of those situations is cheating. cheating is lying. lying is the downfall of a relationship, not non monogamy.

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