"message me if you're skinny and attractive"
A lot of my friends are on OKcupid, the dating site where Bear and I first encountered each other (I know! It’s the most romantic love story ever! Online dating!), and occasionally, one of them will pull me over to a laptop and ask for my opinion on, say, fifty or so guys.
“OK, so he’s pretty vague about what he’s doing with his life, but look at all the books he likes!”
And “Look at his eyes! You can tell he’s really nice. But do you think he’s funny? I can’t tell.”
And “Oh my god, this one’s hilarious. Listen, he says, ‘I will search your soul and find the answer and then I will turn that answer into all of your dreams coming true.’ Is he really, really high?”
We pour through pages of guys. I am often surprised by how picky my friends are.
“Nope. He works in an office. Boring.”
“Nah– those are the show-offy glasses. And what is he wearing??”
Of course, I wasn’t picky enough with some of my ex-boyfriends. I dated some guys I really shouldn’t have.
But then, I still remember the pictures Bear chose for his profile. In them, he looked like he might be planning on killing some people soon. His face was blurry, like a paparazzi shot in a supermarket rag. “FUTURE KILLER ON LOOSE IN LOCAL PARK: A man who will probably kill people was spotted wearing really dorky shorts paired with New Balance sneakers and a tee-shirt with a small, inexplicable hole on the lower right side.”
He didn’t sound quite like himself on his profile. He was clever, and obviously smart, and self-described as “quirky, but probably not in the way that people are supposed to be quirky,” which I found cute. But he didn’t sound anywhere near as awesome as he sounded when we actually started talking. And he didn’t look anything close to how adorable he looked in person. So sometimes it’s hard to tell. Which is not to say my friends should go ahead and meet every guy who they run into online. Judgment is important.
Clearly, I don’t even know exactly what I’m trying to say here.
But this is why I wanted to talk about this at all:
Because one of the guys who I was leafing through with a friend the other night said something that made us both stop in our tracks. And took pickiness to a whole different level. (Or did he?)
He was a very tall, very blond, very handsome guy, whose pictures portrayed him as a great sportsman— climbing on things, swimming through things, building things, driving things. And as a sweet soul— in one picture, he held an armful of lambs. Lambs. I’m totally serious. And while this couldn’t exactly rival the guy we’d just looked at, who had a picture of himself with his arms around two playful lion cubs (I’m totally serious), it was a good start.
He sounded interesting enough, smart enough, nice enough, in his profile. A straight-talking, all-American boy in the way that kindly fictional cowboys might be straight-talking and all-American.
And then, just when we thought we’d made it through without incident, at the very bottom of the profile, under the category “You Should Message Me If”, he’d written, “You’re skinny/fit and attractive.”
“What?” we gasped in unison. We took turns reading it aloud. “You should message me if you’re skinny slash fit and attractive.”
“Skinny?”
“Skinny??”
“Wait, so is skinny his only definition of attractive?”
“Does skinny mean fit?”
“Why did he say skinny? Isn’t that weird that he would say skinny? And not, like, thin, even?”
“Why would he even say thin?”
“How does he know who he can fall in love with?”
“What a jackass.”
“What a little shit.”
“Whatever. At least he’s honest. Now everyone knows not to contact him.”
“Yeah, it’s like a jerk flag.”
“Do you think anyone will actually write to him?”
“Maybe, but only if they’re insecure.”
“Yeah, if they’re insecure.”
And more along those lines. Bear came into the room during this exchange, and he said, “But everyone judges everyone else based on appearance. The guy’s just being honest. Why shouldn’t he? Why would he want to waste someone’s time if she wasn’t what he was looking for?”
“How does he know exactly what he’s looking for?” I practically screeched. “And what he’s doing here is sending this big message to everyone that he values your looks over anything else, and only the people who aren’t offended by that should apply for the position his girlfriend. ” I was suddenly furious, but it was hard to explain exactly why.
And thus began an epic debate. Bear arguing in favor of bluntness and efficiency, my friend and I arguing back on the side of human decency, kindness, civility, equality, rightness, and justice. I mean, my friend and I arguing that people should not obviously discriminate against other people based on their looks. Because it’s just mean. Even if they’re doing it in their heads, which everyone probably is, they shouldn’t say it in their profiles.
Or should they? Maybe that guy really does care so much about a woman’s weight that it’s important that he let the world know. And now the world knows. So that rather than find out later, four months into the relationship, when she gains a few pounds, the women mousing over his profile can know now.
Maybe I get offended too easily. Or maybe I’m just too romantic. I want that man to fall in love with a plus-sized woman. I want him to worship her plush curves.
I want him to forget why he was ever so picky. That would be a good ending. I also kind of want my friends to try out a guy with the wrong glasses, who works in an office. Just to see.
But that might not really be the way the world works.
(you never know… source)
* * *
Unroast: Today I love my feet. I’ve loved them before and I’ll love them again. They’re cute.
P.S. I just got news that the ETDC email service has gone insane and is sending those of you who receive emails from me strange, incoherent messages. I’m sorry. I’m not sure what’s up but will try to deal with it soon!
Kate on September 14th 2011 in Uncategorized
San D responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 1:06 pm #
Shallowness begats shallowness. If he wants someone skinny, that’s who will respond, and they can live their lives happily ever after in skinnydom. Sad part is, as you age, your body does things, and the fight to maintain skinny gets harder. Does this mean he will recycle his skinny girl out for a new one? Sad to say, but true, in my experience those women who prided themselves on their physical looks are having a difficult time getting older. Tall and skinny doesn’t age as well as short and fat. Cute beats beautiful hands down in the aging race.
Kate responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 1:10 pm #
I wondered that too– what will happen to the skinny women he does meet? How much pressure will they feel? Ack.
Kimmy Sue Ruby Lou responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 1:23 pm #
Bear is right, the guy is just being honest. And if he’s a jerk, he’ll attract a woman who wants a jerk. And most likely she’ll be a bitch…and they’ll live happily ever after, getting mani/pedis together, doing the Groupon thing for Botox injections, getting a nice spray on tan when the season calls for that. You know, like a real life Barbie and Ken. Or maybe he had a very bad experience with a big woman, in his childhood of course, and he can’t bear to be around a woman with girth…triggers fear. You just never know. But I get the anger, and not knowing why for sure…I get pissed at my husband for similar comments, drives me crazy sometimes…but relationships are the perfect place to learn about these things that make you crazy 🙂
exmish responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 1:47 pm #
Well, there are also, like, umpteen studies that have demonstrated that people tend to wind up with people who are of a similar “rating” (on scales of attractiveness, intelligence, etc.). I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with his preference for women who are “skinny”, any more so than there is for my husband to prefer blondes (and no, he doesn’t care that my hair is getting darker as I get older :)).
Maybe he (mistakenly) assumes that a skinny woman can keep up with him in all of his Active Manly Things. (He ought to meet Ragen Chastain – google her Dances With Fat blog if you don’t know who she is. 🙂 ) Maybe that’s why he said skinny SLASH fit?
I kind of agree with Bear on this one – if that’s what he thinks he needs, no skin off my teeth. I am adored in all of my lusciousness, by a guy who is getting as “well-rounded” as I am. 😀
Kate responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 1:51 pm #
@exmish
I know Ragen! 🙂
Katie responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 2:45 pm #
you know, if this guy would have said “message me if you’re plump and curvy,” you guys would have been cheering. hello double standard. since when is being skinny a bad thing? it’s like it’s the new evil and people aren’t allowed to say they find it attractive. guess what? i’m skinny…and not because i have an eating disorder, work out too much, or wear myself thin (ha, pun) just to get guys’ attention. i’m just skinny the way some people are curvy, some people are tall, and some people have webbed toes. And, i’m awfully tired of the resentment. (p.s. i really do love your blog. just voicing my opinion.)
Samantha Angela @ Bikini Birthday responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 2:53 pm #
I see Bear’s point that the guy doesn’t want to bother having to let down a girl that he doesn’t find attractive. I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with specifying who/what you are looking for in a date.
I do think that maybe the guy didn’t quite think it through though. I guess he doesn’t know that a lot of women would find a relationship based on physical attraction to be too much pressure. I’m sure there are a lot of fun, baby lamb-loving, skinny/fit, attractive women who won’t respond to his ad because of that line. He’s really narrowing his dating pool.
San D responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 3:00 pm #
@Katie
I’m plump and curvy but wouldn’t have been cheering because I think it should have read “message me if you are clever, funny, interesting, love to laugh and adventuresome” or “message me if you love to read, go to art museums, theater, but know the difference between a slot formation and a lateral”. I know that instinctively we are attractive by “packing” first, even the animals puff themselves up to find a mate, but since we mate for life, and that’s a long time filled with complications, highs and lows. A lot of pressure to attach to the word “skinny”.
Kate responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 3:02 pm #
@Katie
It’s not about resentment. Maybe you’re reading resentment into it? My friend could have easily fit his requirements. But he didn’t list anything else! Just something physical.
And no, honestly, I don’t think I would’ve cheered if he’d said “plump” instead. I think it’s weird to make your dating requirements blatantly about appearance.
Kate responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 3:05 pm #
@San D
Exactly. Sorry, didn’t see your response to Katie when I wrote mine.
Katie– not at all trying to gang up here! I’ve had people resent me for being thin, too, and thought it was ridiculous.
Deanna responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 4:59 pm #
He’s shallow. Many young men are. So are some older men. How about men who won’t even consider a woman over 40? I remember men of my youth who dumped me when they found out I was Jewish.
Like Bear, my hubby thinks there is nothing wrong with wanting a beautiful woman over anything else. It is what is is…and I dint like it.
I’m also tierd of skinny being ghe new evil.
Deanna responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 5:52 pm #
Sorry for typos. Blame it on my iPad!!!
Jewels responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 6:22 pm #
Ok, so the dude lacks tact. And personality. Looks as your only deciding factor? Talk about a boring guy. But that aside, I agree that he might have been trying to weed out people that can’t or won’t be able to keep up with the active lifestyle he seems to be promoting on his profile. Just in a totally shallow and jerkish way.
On a complete side note, okc is how I found my current boyfriend. And let me tell ya, it’s a jungle out there! I went out with a lot of guys before finding someone whose profile was a bit cryptic. I took a gamble and it worked. So one never knows.
Debbie responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 7:59 pm #
I agree with Bear on this. And I appreciate this guy’s willingness to warn me before I make a terrible mistake.
Yan responded on 14 Sep 2011 at 8:22 pm #
It’s online dating.
What the dude said on his profile wasn’t inherently right or wrong. So partly, I agree with Bear — he was being upfront. But I also agree with you, and I think what he was being upfront was prioritizing appearances. Which, to me, would signal “shallow, possibly a jerk.”
See, online dating is about two things, IMO — gut reaction to what the other person puts out there (such a small selection of information!), and reading for red flags. It sounds like you chose Bear based on the first. And your friend can skip going out with this guy because of the latter.
nahl responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 3:04 am #
It’s shallowness and rude. But we only have a right to condemn it if we don’t take part in it-not even in our heads. Like Dumbledore once said, just because it is in our heads doesn’t mean it isn’t true. So, if we think it, why do we condescend those who say it out loud?
I totally get you. I am where you are. I believe in all the qualities you spoke about. Once i had a debate with my friend about whether we should have a “best looking” competition. I was, obviously, against it. But then, I know for a fact that appearances do make a difference to me. Why lie and pretend they don’t? :S
Beth responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 9:57 am #
I completely get what Katie’s saying. I didn’t really read resentment into your entry, it’s more responses like San D’s, “Tall and skinny doesn’t age as well as short and fat.”
Can I help being tall? Not really. Can I help not being curvaceous? Not in the slightest. I hate when boosting someone else’s self-esteem means taking down someone else. The “real women” that everyone loves to talk about these days are not just curvy. They’re skinny, fat, in-between, short, tall, in-between, etc.
Just because I’m thin, doesn’t mean I’m not really a woman. It doesn’t mean I’m not attractive. So stop telling us about how men like women with a little meat on them. Men like tall, slender women too (as proved by this post)–and many see them as “cute,” too.
But as far as the guy in the ad… yeah, there’s no way I would go on a date with him. No one should have to look in the mirror and say, “Oh, well, I’m not attractive, so I don’t fit in this guy’s category.” Everyone is “attractive” to someone else.
midnightsky responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 10:14 am #
Romance and attraction are often heavily based on appearance. Lots of people have a “type” that they date — brawny men, shorter-than-him women, whatever. I can’t seem to be physically attracted to big men, whether that means “ripped” or “fat.” You can’t really control what appearances you like.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with it, him, or you; this entire post seems a little like backlash against the “skinny is pretty” mentality. Just like you think he should embrace a plush, curvy woman, he thinks he wants someone slender. Neither of you are better than the other in terms of standards. And he probably does know exactly what he wants; after a few dates, you probably know what does and doesn’t do it for you when you’re looking at the other person’s body. It’s a bit unfortunate that yes, if the woman starts dating him and gains 20 pounds, he probably won’t be attracted to her…but after a point, physical attraction does matter, and some people will involuntarily lose interest if the other person isn’t sexy in their preferred way.
In the end, it’s a dating site. He wants a certain look in women that he dates. He has every right to tell the curvy girls that they’re not what he’s looking for, just as you would have the right, should you so choose, to say that you would prefer a partner in whatever degree of “fluffiness” you wish.
T.K. responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 10:41 am #
Kate
Of course it is uncomfortable, to say the least, to see a profile like that! He came across like the kind of man who sizes up a woman’ body before he decides if she is even worth speaking to, like the kidn fo man who would break up with a girl if she gained 10 pounds. The fact is he CHOSE to have himself defined by THAT. But I think that it is more than just him being oh so shallow.
For those of us who spend so much time and energy trying to see the world through a different lense, hoping that maybe, just maybe, the world will come around somethign like this is a painful reminder of how alone we are. His profile is a cultural reflection of a culture that you (and myself) are not too happy with. This guy just served as a reminder.
It was the fact that his desire had been shaved down to something so primitive and so narrow. I believe that the problem is deeper than just superficiality. Forget inner beauty, forget substance. Let’s talk pure physical desire ( to the extent that we can separate that from those pesky inconvenient things like personality, intelligence, and world views). Shouldn’t THAT desire, that preference, which comes from a place of pure lust, a most private place, be especially unique? Does anyone else feel like our desire is not truly ours? It has been shaped, twisted, sold. We are told what’s “hot” and what isn’t from the time that we are conscious enough to take in the world and we never even notice it. It is not so much that the images that we are seeing that depict attractiveness and sexiness are reflecting some natural reflex but that our “natural” response is constructed by those images. I mean it is so bad these days that people ( men in particular) who are attracted to “imperfect” physical traits ( as defined by magazines, pon, music videos, cartoons, cereal boxes, and a bottle of alleve) are actually ashamed of it! So how much can we even trust our notion of “hot” and “beautiful”? So much that we are willing to write people off on first glance? It isn’t even about looks not mattering. It is about being free enough to own your attraction.
All of us are trapped in this. But I think that those of us who come to this blog possess a certain degree of awareness. A lot of people do on some level, which is why they don’t go around being so open about the fact that they too have a hard time separating themselves from the “matruix”, the socially acceptable standard of beauty and desireability. And this guy had no qualms about it. And that is upsetting. Because he is not the exception, he is the norm.
-your cylon clone 🙂
camelshoes responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 11:08 am #
I met my fiance on an online dating site. I was quite picky when looking. One thing I had in my profile was “It may sound superficial, but looks matter; you don’t need to be male model material, but I have to find you attractive, and vice versa.” I was trying to be honest. Maybe it sounds weird, in hindsight.
I wrote it because I’d met men that were perfectly lovely but I didn’t feel attracted to them. I was trying to explain that there needed to be chemistry between us. I wonder if it put people off? Not that it matters, since I did snag my fiance with that profile…
However, the main thing that attracted me to my fiance was that he could spell, string a sentence together and had put some effort into his profile.
San D responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 12:01 pm #
@Beth
You are right my “Tall and skinny doesn’t age as well as short and fat.” is a bit snarky. Sorry about that.
Just an observation on my part, the taller women seem to get shorter, and the shorter women started at that point already so there is a noticeable visual difference. And, as another observation goes, when you get older, thinner women seem to lose their ass in the aging process. Of course this is an observation from a woman who would be considered someone’s grandmother.
j responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 12:16 pm #
@camelshoes: It strikes me that there’s a world of difference between wanting someone who is attractive TO YOU and someone who is attractive, full stop.
I won’t date someone who’s not attractive to me (a lesson learned the hard way), but I also can’t usually tell if someone is going to be attractive to me until I meet him (n.b. gender pronouns come from my own personal preference!) in person and see how he inhabits his body.
There are people I find incredibly sexy because I know them well who I found outright repellent when I first met them, and there are people who a majority of people-who-dig-dudes would think are hot on sight but who are such awful people that it’s hard to find them remotely good-looking.
@whoever:
I don’t think Kate meant to imply that he’s a bad person. And I don’t necessarily even think she cares all that much that he likes skinny as opposed to plump. (You like what you like, although it doesn’t exist in a cultural vacuum AT ALL.) I think that what is off-putting to her – and most of the commenters, and to me – is that the ONLY requirement was a physical one. Surely you want to have *something* more in common than attraction? Having a physical preference doesn’t make you shallow – we all do. Caring ONLY about the physical makes you shallow.
Deanna responded on 15 Sep 2011 at 2:14 pm #
In defense of thin women! I’m thin…probably too thin now but it isn’t due to lack of eating.
I once sent an email to the author Jennifer Weiner who often writes about overweight women and how they struggle in relationships. I frequently write to authors with comments (mostly good) on their books. They ALWAYS write me back. Ms. Weiner did not. I told her that even thought I have been thin most of my life, I also struggled with relationships. My face wasn’t pretty enough. my hair too fine and frizzy, too tall…whatever…I was never a man magnet. I think some heavier women really despise thin women. They think we are super successful attracting men. That just isn’t true.
T responded on 16 Sep 2011 at 10:12 pm #
You know, one of the things I don’t really like about online dating is that it encourages people to draw some pretty strong boundaries around what they’re willing to accept, which doesn’t leave a ton of room for being surprised by someone awesome you wouldn’t have ordinarily looked at. Chemistry is mysterious. Maybe this guy would be interested in someone who didn’t run triathlons or whatever he defines as ‘skinny/fit,’ but he’s self-selecting down to women who are comfortable defining themselves as such.
Of course, maybe he had an experience where someone put up misleading photos of themselves and now he’s trying to keep that from happening. More than a few of my friends have been surprised by the difference between the photo they saw and the person who showed up.
Paula responded on 17 Sep 2011 at 12:33 am #
Part of me thinks that he is a jerk, but another part of me admires his honesty. At least he was up front with his shallowness, most people would just pretend to be deep. I mean it is shallow to judge/like people by what they look like, but we all do it. It’s just that most of us wouldn’t announce it to the world in our public profiles.
jss responded on 20 Sep 2011 at 10:38 am #
I suppose I would “go with” appreciating this guy’s candor, however shallow it seems to me. A more PC guy who has a strong preference for “skinny/fit” women would, if contacted by an overweight/unfit potential partner, probably feel compelled to make up some non-shallow reason for rejecting the women. And this just sounds to me like it would be a waste of both his and her time.
As a sidenote, I am a skinny/fit woman who would never respond to an ad like this because it would make me paranoid that if I had some age-related weight gain or could not shed my pregnancy weight in a day or whatever, the guy would lose interest in me. So, again, I appreciate his candor because it helps me eliminate him off the bat as someone I could possibly be interested in…
Claire Allison responded on 20 Sep 2011 at 10:35 pm #
I couldn’t help thinking about this post today. I walked into our design studio and two girls, larger than I, said “speak of the devil…” and I said, “What? Were you talking about me or something?” And they said “No, skinny girls and the guys who like them.” I honestly didn’t know what to do but look at my waist and sort of look at them and continue to not know what to say.
Lili @ Relatable Style responded on 25 Sep 2011 at 7:14 pm #
Although I’d be a little offended by the sentence, I’m on Bear’s side here. For some people, online dating is about not wasting any time. And I’ve been known to say in random conversations with strangers “Just so you know, I like talking to you right now but if you are looking for a date it’s not happening. I’m in a relationship and I don’t want you to waste your time.” Now this does not come from “OMG I’m so not worth talking to” but rather a genuine sentiment. This is why I would now (with a few failed online dates in my early twenties) recommend everyone to write about their tastes in their profiles. I would try to find a funny way to say “skinny and short guys, as well as extremely obese guys do not need to apply”, because I just know I don’t like that. I like tall manly men. And I like beefy men, they can be somewhat oberweight but not Jabba the Hutt! And because of that, if I was with a man shorter than me, who was also skinnier than me, my heart would still skip a beat at the sight of a tall “manly man”. And I feel that would be unfair and I’d feel ashamed. So I’m all for being honest in a dating profile. If there are things you just feel you’d rather not live with in a partner, say so. Looks are important, after all – a partner does not have to be attractive by common standards, but he or she has to be attractive to YOU. And if his partner just has to be fit/skinny and attractive, that’s it. I personally would find better words to say it, but I understand and appreciate the honesty. If I was confronted with such a guy, I feel it would be better for my self-esteem not to contact him at all instead of contacting him and then being sorted out because of my looks…. or having an awkward blind date because of it… 😉
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